Trout is the hands down MVP in my opinion. The Triple Crown is an amazing feat, and Cabrera put together a season that was a joy to watch. But, I have a problem putting so much stock in something that is largely a result of great opportunity and not a result of elite talent. I wish there was a way to determine how many RBI's Miggy and Trout would have had if they switched spots in the lineup.
Post by Kevin (Guardians GM) on Oct 5, 2012 11:58:26 GMT -5
Yes RBIs are about oppertunity but you still have to hit the ball and with a little more pressure on you to get it done vs hitting with no one on. Just a counter point.
Yes RBIs are about oppertunity but you still have to hit the ball and with a little more pressure on you to get it done vs hitting with no one on. Just a counter point.
Yes, but Cabrera led the league in double plays as well. He had 28 to Trout's 7. In just 58 more PAs than Trout, Cabrera was responsible for 60 more outs. Trout's a leadoff hitter, so yes, he had fewer opportunities to ground into double plays, but he also had fewer opportunities for RsBI. Personally, I don't care much about either of these stats, but if you're gonna care about one you really ought to care about the other. And, if you're going to pay attention to RsBI, which is a stat that is significantly influenced by where you bat in the order, you also ought to look at another lineup-influenced stat: runs, of which Trout had 20 more than Cabrera.
Post by Ben (Rays GM) on Oct 5, 2012 13:19:12 GMT -5
To anybody who thinks that Cabrera winning the Triple Crown should be a point (or more) in his favor in the MVP discussion:
Hypothetically, let's say Josh Hamilton had homered twice on the last day of the season, pushing him ahead of Cabrera and taking away Cabrera's Triple Crown. Would it affect Cabrera's case for MVP? Hamilton's HRs wouldn't affect Cabrera's or Trout's "value" at all, so if those two HRs by a player who's not at all involved in the MVP discussion would create any change in your opinions about said discussion, you should probably rethink your position.
The MVP isn't an award for players who led the league in HRs, AVG, and RsBI. They already have an award for that called the Triple Crown.
Post by Oren (Diamondbacks GM) on Oct 5, 2012 14:30:38 GMT -5
if the mvp isnt an award for player who lead the league in HR avg and RBI then that means that the MVP is also not an award for players who led the league in OBP runs and SB...
if the mvp isnt an award for player who lead the league in HR avg and RBI then that means that the MVP is also not an award for players who led the league in OBP runs and SB...
Nobody said it is...
My point was simply that winning the Triple Crown shouldn't have anything to do with the MVP.
i guess in a sense that the fact that he wonit shouldnt chagne the fact but the fact that he is leading the league in those three cats should
That's fair. All I'm saying is he shouldn't get bonus points for it. But you're right that his performance in those areas helps his case. I just think Trout's performance in those same three areas is nearly as impressive, and his performance in other areas is way more impressive.
Post by Oren (Diamondbacks GM) on Oct 5, 2012 14:41:54 GMT -5
fair enough... i personally dont but his stats in SB and runs are amazing... then his defensive stats over miggy makes him more worthy but not by much but then the fact miggy's team made the playoffs is why i think miggy should win mvp IN MY OPINION
Post by yellomellojello on Oct 5, 2012 18:42:30 GMT -5
Trout. A million times Trout, and it's not close. Cabrera had a great year, and perhaps MVP worthy in some seasons - but not this one. There are many great hitting seasons by a mediocre defensive player at an unimportant position. Trout had a historically great season. Center fielders don't hit like he did (with the exceptions being names like DiMaggio, Mantle, and Mays), and really only Mays hit and played CF with aplomb.
To keep it simple though, Trout and Cabrera were pretty similar at the plate, with Cabrera being slightly better (40 points of SLG, although Trout's 6 pts of OBP conservatively knock that down to only a 30 point advantage given the relative importance of each.) Meanwhile, Trout was clearly far superior on the bases, to the point that for general offense I think he has the advantage - but even if you don't, it's near impossible to say they were anything other than very close in offensive value.
Meanwhile, Trout did this at a far more important defense position, which he played exceptionally well, while Cabrera played his much less difficult position as an, at best, mediocre defender. With equal offense and a very clear differentiation on defense, I don't see how Trout can't be considered MVP. The only legitimate counter arguments are: 1. playoffs (which I don't think should matter at all, but fine) and 2. playing time. Cabrera played in 22 more games, which definitely matters. Not enough to make up for the defensive shortcomings, but it matters.
Also, given Trout played in a much tougher division, I'd bet anything he faced tougher pitching than Cabrera, but I'll admit that's pretty speculative.
I can't believe I just spent this many words (ed: okay, not that many now that I'm looking at this post) defending Trout - I don't even like him. I hate any/everything Angels baseball, for no real reason.
I dont know why cabrera is being tagged as a mediocre defender, he was sixth at fielding percentage in all mlb at the hardest place to be in the infield. he only had 13 errors all season.
Personally, maybe its hard for me not to be nationalist because im venezuelan, but its not possible that cabrera isnt the mvp. He achieved a feat that last happened 45 years ago. playing half his games at comerica park. Trout had an amazing season no doubt. But this season cabrera had isnt just a great season by a player. its a triple crown season. something 5 other guys in all of baseball history have achieved. rbi is not an individual stat (ehhh..) well runs isnt either. also, trout only had 1 more base on balls than cabrera and ,because trout consumed aprox. 60 less ab´s , thats why he has 6 points over cabrera. And Trout was 3rd in the AL in obp this season didnt led the league as some of you guys pointed out.
Dont get me wrong, Trout had the best season ever for a rookie. even one of the best seasons ever iif you will. I just dont think you can put him over cabrera for the mvp, under a lot more pression because of CHW and DET fighting for the division. Trout is a hell of a player and should win his fair share of MVPs i just dont think this should be his first.
(imo, Trout is going to win it, because of the first thing i mentioned when i started this post, nationalism..)
I dont know why cabrera is being tagged as a mediocre defender, he was sixth at fielding percentage in all mlb at the hardest place to be in the infield. he only had 13 errors all season.
Personally, maybe its hard for me not to be nationalist because im venezuelan, but its not possible that cabrera isnt the mvp. He achieved a feat that last happened 45 years ago. playing half his games at comerica park. Trout had an amazing season no doubt. But this season cabrera had isnt just a great season by a player. its a triple crown season. something 5 other guys in all of baseball history have achieved. rbi is not an individual stat (ehhh..) well runs isnt either. also, trout only had 1 more base on balls than cabrera and ,because trout consumed aprox. 60 less ab´s , thats why he has 6 points over cabrera. And Trout was 3rd in the AL in obp this season didnt led the league as some of you guys pointed out.
Dont get me wrong, Trout had the best season ever for a rookie. even one of the best seasons ever iif you will. I just dont think you can put him over cabrera for the mvp, under a lot more pression because of CHW and DET fighting for the division. Trout is a hell of a player and should win his fair share of MVPs i just dont think this should be his first.
(imo, Trout is going to win it, because of the first thing i mentioned when i started this post, nationalism..)
There's an award that they give out for winning The Triple Crown. It's called The Triple Crown.
I really think there's a good argument for either of these players: if you think the MVP should go to the best player from the playoff teams, you vote for Cabrera. If you think the MVP should go to the player who had the most statistical impact for his team (but didn't necessarily lead his team to the playoffs), you vote for Trout - because I'm sorry, but you can't argue that Cabrera's stats were better than Trout's this year, cause they weren't. Objectively, they just weren't - there are ways to measure this and they work, whether or not you're aware of them. So if your reason for voting for Cabrera is because he won the Triple Crown, that's just not good enough. He's already won an award for that, no need to give him another unrelated award unless you think he deserves that award for another, unrelated reason. Giving it to him because his team made the playoffs is a good reason, even if I don't agree with it personally.
Post by Oren (Diamondbacks GM) on Oct 22, 2012 20:27:28 GMT -5
I agree with what your saying. Trout's stats were in no way better than miggy's though either. and it hink that because of that the key is that when the tigers needed their best player to step up to get them into the playoffs he did and when the angels needed trout to step up in september to try and get a playoff spot he didnt really. which is why i thinkmiggy should win MVP over trout
I agree with what your saying. Trout's stats were in no way better than miggy's though either. and it hink that because of that the key is that when the tigers needed their best player to step up to get them into the playoffs he did and when the angels needed trout to step up in september to try and get a playoff spot he didnt really. which is why i thinkmiggy should win MVP over trout
You're absolutely right - Miggy got his team to the playoffs, Trout didn't. Miggy had a great September, Trout didn't. If you think these are important criteria for the MVP, that's your right - lots of people would agree with you; I myself am not one of them, but I understand the argument.
I completely disagree with the statement that "Trout's stats were in no way better than miggy's." This is absolutely false. Trout's stats were historically fantastic. By WAR, Trout tied for the 80th best season of all time (tied with Jackie Robinson's and Mike Schmidt's best seasons) and the best by anybody since 2004, while Cabrera tied for the 680th best season of all time (tied with Hank Aaron's 15th best season - his worst season of the 1960s) and was 8th best this year. I know WAR's not perfect, I know we can't say that Trout's WAR means that the Angels would have lost exactly 10 games fewer if they didn't have him, I know we can't say that Cabrera's WAR means that the Tigers would have lost exactly 7.1 fewer games without him, but it's a fantastic guideline when you need to take subjectivity out of the equation, which is exactly what we need to do.
Cabrera was the first player to lead his league in AVG, HR, and RsBI since 1967 - fine. But Trout was the first ever to hit 30 HRs, steal 45 bases, and score 125 runs - these are simply cherry picked stats, so how can we decide which ones matter more? Fact: Trout was better than Cabrera at baserunning and defense. Fact: Cabrera was better than Trout at hitting for power. What we need to do is figure out which of these things was more important. WAR does that, objectively - now, if Trout finished with 10 WAR and Cabrera finished with 9.5, I wouldn't be making this argument, cause that would be fairly close. But it wasn't close, not at all. Fact: Trout was objectively a much better player than Cabrera in 2012.
Does that mean Trout was more valuable? That's up to you to decide. But whether Trout or Cabrera was the better player in 2012 is not up for debate, it's simply not close.
Last Edit: Oct 22, 2012 21:29:02 GMT -5 by Ben (Rays GM)
WAR takes in defense correct?? I was just saying that miggys hitting vs trouts hittin you can't really say one is better over the other
Yes, you're right. WAR takes into account defense and baserunning. If you took defense out of the equation, Trout would have been worth about 8.9 wins while Cabrera would have been worth about 8.1 wins. If you took baserunning out of the equation as well, Trout would have been worth about 7.7 wins while Cabrera would have been worth about 8.4 wins. So on hitting alone, Cabrera comes out on top (as evidenced by his .417 wOBA compared to Trout's .409), but only just. The MVP award isn't just about hitting though; baserunning and defense should matter, because they are important ways in which you can earn (or, in Cabrera's case, cost) your team runs and wins. That's why I personally think Trout should win MVP but Cabrera should win the Hank Aaron award (top hitter).
